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Postby Bag of Ass » Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:07 pm

Square721BT wrote:Morpheus' sensitivity killed him. Where the Endless are concerned, sensitivity is a definite detriment.

I wouldn't really say that. It was Morpheus's resistance to change coupled with the realization that change was required that led to his sacrifice. You could easily argue that the second one relates to sensitivity, but I think the biggest factor was the first. He was very proud, honorable, and above all stubborn.

Also, you say sensitivity is a detriment to the Endless, but it seems to work out for Death. And Delerium (sorta). We never really see Destiny interacting with people, he just kinda hangs out up in his ivory tower and his garden. He doesn't really prosper, he just sort of persists. In fact, all of them are like that. I just don't think sensitivity is really an important factor in performing the Endless's responsibilities.

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Postby Square721BT » Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:24 am

Bag of Ass wrote:I wouldn't really say that. It was Morpheus's resistance to change coupled with the realization that change was required that led to his sacrifice. You could easily argue that the second one relates to sensitivity, but I think the biggest factor was the first. He was very proud, honorable, and above all stubborn.

I don't see where you're coming from there. Yes, he started very proud, honorable, and stubborn, but his growth as a character was away from that. His death came as a result of helping Delerium and Orpheus -- He killed Orpheus in exchange for Orpheus telling him where Destruction is. That was pretty obviously a sensitive action.
Also, you say sensitivity is a detriment to the Endless, but it seems to work out for Death. And Delerium (sorta). We never really see Destiny interacting with people, he just kinda hangs out up in his ivory tower and his garden. He doesn't really prosper, he just sort of persists. In fact, all of them are like that. I just don't think sensitivity is really an important factor in performing the Endless's responsibilities.

Man, I think you totally missed the point of Death. "You get what everybody gets; you get a lifetime," remember? And for Delerium, she would need to have some sense of what's going on to be sensitive. She is, in fact, completely random; she might help you, or she might not, or she might help you then get bored and turn you into a balloon. That's because that's what her rules dictate. Dream was the only one that tried to step out of his realm and directly influence the waking world, something that runs counter to the nature of Dream.

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Postby Too-Much-Coffee Mistress » Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:08 am

Eolh wrote:Yeah, Gaiman wrote the 9 part miniseries for Marvel called 1602, which was basically a glorified "What If?" series about the Marvel Universe and it's key players existing in the year 1602 instead of now. Interesting and well-written.



Yeah, except for the last issue, which was crap-in-print. I wonder if he wasn't pressed by Marvel to squeeze the series into 9 issues.
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Postby Bag of Ass » Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:55 pm

Square721BT wrote:I don't see where you're coming from there. Yes, he started very proud, honorable, and stubborn, but his growth as a character was away from that. His death came as a result of helping Delerium and Orpheus -- He killed Orpheus in exchange for Orpheus telling him where Destruction is. That was pretty obviously a sensitive action.

I interpreted it differently. I saw that, yes, he helped Delerium because he had changed. And he helped Orpheus because he changed, but also because of his sense of honor. That has never wavered. I'll agree with you that Morpheus's newfound sensitivity led to his death, but I think (and I think Morpheus thought) that that was good for Dream of the Endless.

Here's a peripherally related thing to think about. Remember back in the first book when Lucifer said that one day he would kill Morpheus? He sort of did. By giving Morpheus the key to Hell, he sparked a number of gods to come seek it. Odin and Thor freed Loki from his eternal torture, and eventually Loki (and Puck) kidnapped baby Daniel, setting off Lyta Hall to become the hand of the Kindly Ones.

Man, I think you totally missed the point of Death. "You get what everybody gets; you get a lifetime," remember?...Dream was the only one that tried to step out of his realm and directly influence the waking world, something that runs counter to the nature of Dream.

Are you trying to say that Death is not sensitive and that she does a good job, or that she is sensitive and does a bad job? I am saying that she is sensitive and does a good job. While her job is to take people when they die, which can be performed without sensitivity, what makes her good at her job is that she cares about people and makes them feel pretty good about crossing over. Death also occasionally influenced things outside of her realm and otherwise went against her nature. Hob Gadling, for example, or the whole thing about living one day as a mortal every hundred years in The High Cost of Living.

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Postby Square721BT » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:04 pm

Bag of Ass wrote:I interpreted it differently. I saw that, yes, he helped Delerium because he had changed. And he helped Orpheus because he changed, but also because of his sense of honor. That has never wavered. I'll agree with you that Morpheus's newfound sensitivity led to his death, but I think (and I think Morpheus thought) that that was good for Dream of the Endless.

Sense of honor my ass, he left him as a disembodied head for thousands of years. If he was going to help him out of a sense of honor, he would have done so sometime in prehistory. However, he didn't, because, as he was very fond of saying, "there are rules." One does not spill family blood.

There's an interview with Neil somewhere that backs this up, and I wish I could remember what it was in.

And yes, I think it was also good that he grew and changed. That's the point of character growth.
Are you trying to say that Death is not sensitive and that she does a good job, or that she is sensitive and does a bad job?

I'm saying that she's not sensitive because the constraints of her job demand it. Remember in The Sound of Her Wings, when the child died? That was not a sensitive thing to do.
I am saying that she is sensitive and does a good job. While her job is to take people when they die, which can be performed without sensitivity, what makes her good at her job is that she cares about people and makes them feel pretty good about crossing over.

Why shouldn't she? She knows that they're going where they want to go. That deosn't require sensitivity, it requires pragmatism, which is the fundamental characteristic of Gaiman's Death.
Death also occasionally influenced things outside of her realm and otherwise went against her nature. Hob Gadling, for example, or the whole thing about living one day as a mortal every hundred years in The High Cost of Living.

Hob Gadling was out of a perverse sense of humor. I wouldn't call that sensitive at all. Liveing a day as a mortal was not something that was against the rules; I would in fact guess that it is a rule for Death, and not a desire.

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Postby Eolh » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:10 pm

I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the book in front of me. But in one of the afterwards Neil Gaiman posts his response to the question "Describe Sandman in 10 words or less." His response was something pretty damn close to:

"The Lord of Dreams discovers he must change or die and makes his choice." I think that's a pretty good indicator that the point was that Morpheus realized he was unable to change what he was any further and because of that inability to change he chose to die.
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Postby Square721BT » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:13 pm

Eolh wrote:I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the book in front of me. But in one of the afterwards Neil Gaiman posts his response to the question "Describe Sandman in 10 words or less." His response was something pretty damn close to:

"The Lord of Dreams discovers he must change or die and makes his choice." I think that's a pretty good indicator that the point was that Morpheus realized he was unable to change what he was any further and because of that inability to change he chose to die.

And after that Gaiman says that it's a terrible description and a biut misleading.

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Postby Eolh » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:14 pm

I don't recall that. And I read it like 2 days ago.
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Postby Bag of Ass » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:14 pm

Square721BT wrote:I'm saying that she's not sensitive because the constraints of her job demand it. Remember in The Sound of Her Wings, when the child died? That was not a sensitive thing to do.

Wow, okay. Yeah, we're viewing Death from totally different perspectives, then. See, if I read you right, you're saying that part of her job is to decide who lives and who dies. I think of it that that stuff is all decided (ie. it's written in Destiny's book) and she is just the one who oversees them as they go from living to dying. You can do that without caring about people, but she does a good job of helping them transition from one state to the next because she does care.

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Postby Square721BT » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:22 pm

No, I'm seeing it the same way. Destiny "decides" what's going to happen -- or his book does. But it is within Death's power to simply refuse to take someone (a la Hob) and it's also well within her power to not respond with "You get what everyone gets; you get a lifetime." That's not at all a sensitive line, and it encapsulates Death perfectly: You're guaranteed nothing, deal with it. Because, as I said, Death is very pragmatic. She's not a dick, like, for instance, Desire or Dream are or can be. Being a dick is not at all pragmatic; it is, in fact, a form of melodrama. I think that's what you're confusin ghere: The difference between being sensitive to someone elses needs and trying to fill those needs, and not being a cock.

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Postby Bag of Ass » Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:19 pm

This is a great discussion, and I mean that honestly; it's nice to be able to finally discuss this story. I just don't think we're going to resolve this. I can't convince you that insert thing I can't convince you of, and you can't convince me that Death was not sensitive. It may just be a difference of definition, ie. of semantics, in which case we both understand the story the same way.

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Postby Eolh » Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:00 pm

Square721BT wrote:And after that Gaiman says that it's a terrible description and a biut misleading.

For my own edification I looked it up. It's in the Introduction to Endless Nights. His exact wording after that quote was "It's true as far as it goes, but it leaves a lot out. Introductions always do."
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Postby dogmeat » Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:11 pm

Eolh wrote:
dogmeat wrote:
Eolh wrote:Just finished through Sandman TPB #10. Neil Gaiman just kicked my ass. A work of art.


Now read Neverwhere & Stardust. Genius.

I've read Neverwhere and American Gods. I preferred the latter but the combination of the two was what convinced me to take the plunge and go for a $250 graphic novel investement.


Now what a plunge to take. I think I've a coupla gaps in my collection that I must plug. Also, I need to get hold of the first 'Rising Stars' collection. And see whether there's any Preacher books I've missed. Gaaaah.

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Postby Square721BT » Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:01 pm

Ugh, Preacher. *retch*

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Postby Too-Much-Coffee Mistress » Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:38 am

Square721BT wrote: Destiny "decides" what's going to happen -- or his book does.


I was under the impression that Destiny is the book, and vice versa. I guess if that's the case, though, Lucifer's actions at the end of the latest issue of that could hold some very serious consequences.

spoiler *[spoiler] At the end of the issue, in a fit of Destiny-provoked rage, Lucifer rips a handful of pages from Destiny's book and incinerates them. Which, of course, Destiny anticipated...[/spoiler] It's actually kind of nice to see somebody one-up Lucifer every now and then, even if it has to be one of the Endless.
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Postby Bag of Ass » Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:17 am

They're making a Death movie.

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Postby Square721BT » Mon Jul 26, 2004 9:17 am

Bag of Ass wrote:They're making a Death movie.

Oh man, for a secon there I thought the last several months had been a dream, and this was actually news.

Gaiman is in charge of the Death movie, for those who don't know.

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Postby dogmeat » Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:38 pm

Square721BT wrote:Ugh, Preacher. *retch*


It's the old 2000AD reader in me, I like Ennis' writing.

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Postby Square721BT » Mon Jul 26, 2004 9:17 pm

Well, my reasons for disliking Preacher are enumerated elsewhere, so I won't start another fight with TMCM.

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Postby Too-Much-Coffee Mistress » Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:53 am

dogmeat wrote:
Square721BT wrote:Ugh, Preacher. *retch*


It's the old 2000AD reader in me, I like Ennis' writing.


Me too. Are you reading his run on the new Marvel MAX edition of Punisher? I was afraid that the move to MAX was just an excuse for tits n' blood, but Ennis has used it to really turn the Punisher into a regular bastard. Excellent stuff so far.

spoiler-[spoiler] I mean hell, he kills his old sidekick Micro at the end of the first story arc.[/spoiler]
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