Some reasons we should go to war with Iraq

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Messina
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Postby Messina » Thu Sep 19, 2002 2:06 am

Come on guys. I am only one person against many here. I don't always have the time to respond specifically to each and every post. If you feel I have unfairly lumped you in with others in response, I apologize.

Hoboken: I believed I responded to your point when discussing the necessity of preparations for war. If not, I am not sure what your point was.

Too-Much-Coffee-Man: I think you are referring to the Ritter discussion. I believe you are misstating what I said. I didn't say you didn't believe people who disagree with you. I have no idea what you believe. What I said was that you characterize people who agree with you as having “cajones” and being “level-headed” while characterizing those that disagree with you as being in it for “poll numbers” or something like that and that is the argument you make. I have a problem with attack-as-argumentation (i.e. if (note I am not saying you did, this is an example) you use it like: “Bush is evil, therefore his policy on Iraq is wrong”). In reference to Ritter, I did not call him a traitor, or an stooge of Saddam. I did say that the facts call into question his credibility, and that should be taken into account. The point is that this was not an argument against any policies advocated by Ritter. I did not say “Ritter is untrustworthy, ipso facto, the policy prescriptions he advocates are wrong”. I was focused on the evidence of weapons, that is facts, not policies.

For everyone: In one of my more recent posts, I did however attack people as being blinded by hatred of Bush who took Saddam at his word, or as I said took positions that were equivalent. it was an ad hominem attack made out of frustration, and I should not do that. I apologize. I should have just stated my arguments and dispensed with the needless ad hominem.

Back to TMCM: As far as believing Bush's statements and accusations, the reason I do is because of the facts. (The validity of plans is a different story. That is prediction, so is much less factually based) If you want to have a discussion of those facts , (which do not come from Bush of course, because he is not a source), then fine. I am not sure if I am making myself clear. One more try: calling into question the validity of facts, and the people who are sources of these facts (i.e. not just messengers) is very different than arguing against a position by attacking the people who support the position (What I did was worse I guess; I was just attacking). This is what I was referring to.

As far as the quote, “great deal” and “substantial” are subjective terms of course, I am not sure what your point is. Something like “all, given all reasonable doubt” would be far more comforting to me.

Foo-byte:
The only thing I have to add on this that I didn't already is that the problem is with the time table. Right now the UN is hemming and hawing about deciding on hypothetical consequences. Setting up an inspection regime takes time and the consequences need to be decided upon now, not in the future. Oh, and as far as what we “look” like to others, I agree that we need to do a better job of selling our policies.

Finally, Red:
I don't find your two listed viewpoints as irreconcilable as you do. Holding the first viewpoint does not imply that you think America is perfect, and hasn't made mistakes in the past and isn't making them now. Sometimes, US policy is decided for economic reasons, such as our stance on China. Sometimes, we choose the lesser of two evils in a conflict, and in the Cold War, the USSR was often the worst side. On and on. These aren't clear cut questions often, because it requires the imputation of motive (and maybe those pesky semantics). We act in our interests, like most if not all nations, but sometimes these interests actually DO coincide with the interests of others. I believe that on the one side, some people are too easy on the US (first viewpoint). On the other, I believe that some people hold the US to impossible standards (second viewpoint, sort of). And of course, it all depends on what you mean by “justice”, “imperial” and the rest. Of course we eventually have to agree to disagree, but we should still debate issues and not just say “well, I'm a #1 and your a #2, so there is no reason to debate”. There is a middle ground. Of course, you are probably saying that in this particular case, not as a general thing, and we have pretty much exhausted everything. But the whole UN thing was a new wrinkle in the proceedings, so we are debating anew.

Phew, yet another long one. I just hope someone hasn't posted another message before I post this, don't want them to be angry that I am ignoring them.

Addendum: Phew!

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Too-Much-Coffee Mistress
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Postby Too-Much-Coffee Mistress » Thu Sep 19, 2002 7:19 am

I believe I've 'attacked' Bush's character once, maybe twice during the course of this thread. It's personal belief that, while not evil, Bush certainly is a puppet of sorts with Cheney, Ashcroft, and daddy Bush along with others at the strings. But Dubya's character, or lack thereof, is an entirely different thread...

In the interests of condensing my feelings on the matter; I have seen little from Bush, Blair, or either of their administrations outside of fiery rhetoric. Again, if we are to go to war, I would like solid proof of weapons construction and materials shipments, and actual effort to get the inspectors back in rather than the constant parroting of how many UN resolutions have been violated.

As has been said, Iraq has offered to allow the inspectors to return without condition; and rather than call their bluff, if that's what it is, Bush continues to push for sending in GI Joe with his Kung-Fu Grip.

My reason for posting that quote is that it came from a report filed by Richard Butler, Ritter's former boss. And since Butler was the first person ponied out by the Bush administration to contradict what Ritter had to say, I found it interesting that a report had been filed by him that keyed with what Ritter has been saying while he has been calling Ritter a liar. My purpose in drawing attention to it was to call Butler's credibility into account.

A personal note; not to sound like a cold-hearted ass, but why is it the general belief (mainly by citizens of this country, mind you) that the US has to be the saviour for the rest of the world? We have a certain responsibility, yes, but that responsibility does not include throwing our weight around as we so choose regardless of what anyone else thinks; especially not when it is badly disguised as a noble quest for world peace. "Welcom to D.C., leave your soul at the door, here's some kickbacks to getcha started."

Also Messina, and don't take this the wrong way, but please don't attempt to turn this into a David vs. Goliath kind of thing. "one person against many." While most here disagree with you, it's not as though we've covered you in meat and thrown you to the Monty Python rabbit. In fact, for such a volatile topic, I think the discussion has remained remarkably civil so far.

As far as characterizing people I agree with as level-headed being skewed? This is a poor semantic argument. What, am I supposed to refer to the people I agree with as being right off their rocker? I have a number of validated reasons why I do not like, nor trust Bush or his motiviations in this affair. Why Hussein? Why now, after over 10 years? Maybe, just maybe to keep the ratings bonanza that is the 'war on terror' rolling? You yourself in the first post acknowledged essentially that 'yes, I'm aware that there is oil in the region.' So it has to have crossed your mind that control of oil reserves is at least part of the motivation for 'action.'

That's all for now... mostly personal, but I'm unloading on this post. Substance will follow.
"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker." - Albert Einstein

Messina
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Postby Messina » Thu Sep 19, 2002 7:56 am

1)I was simply saying that I can't respond to each and every post. You are correct in that it has remained civil, save for my own attack. I was not claiming to be persecuted or anything like that, don't read too much into that particular wording.

2)We obviously disagree about what the responsibility is that the US has to the world. And therefore disagree about what the US "has" to do. It may just be one of degree.

3)Once again, my problem with what you were saying was that you were using it as an argument (NOT that you were calling Bush, etc. this or that) and imputing motives to him as a way of saying why the war would be wrong or unjustified. I was asking to focus on the issues of whether Saddam needed to be dealt with and not that Bush is X, Y, and Z. Of course I don't expect you to call someone you think is a moron a genius. The once or twice snowballed, because I said what I said, and then you questioned that, I reiterated what I meant, and etc., etc. It ceased to be about a particular instance and became a general discussion because we didn't understand each other I guess. Hey, it's not like I have anything better to do than to argue about arguing in the midst of arguments about argumentation, right?

Later.

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halofyre
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Postby halofyre » Sun Oct 06, 2002 4:10 pm

Wow, okay, that's a lot of content to wade through. I've tried my best, so if I repeat anyone or contradict something huge I apologize in advance. But I just wanted to say how I feel about the entire thing.

Up here, North of the Border, I was really proud of my World Leader. I have my beef with Jean Chretien from time to time. When Bush put his Cowboy hat on again, I think a lot of Canadians were really questioning his motives. I think I agree with Too-Much-Coffee-Man. Before Chretien jumped on Bush's bandwagon, he wanted proof. And he must have gotten it, because now we're in it - and to the best of my knowledge, some of our guys are over there searching right now.

There is this whole "wanting to finish where his father failed". I think he desperately wants to be the "Bush who killed Hussien", as his father was "the Bush who helped tear down the Wall."

But as much as I believe Bush is a moron, I also believe he has a few intelligent people telling him what to do, and a host of countries backing him up... I imagine whatever he chooses to do, he will see through to the end. I just hope he doesn't go and get us all blown up - I'm too close to the American Border for comfort.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Kauser
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Postby Kauser » Sun Oct 06, 2002 4:12 pm

Spoken like a true Canadian.
Do not call up what you cannot put down.

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The Real Red Menace
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Postby The Real Red Menace » Sun Oct 06, 2002 8:34 pm

Alright I remember when we had this discussion a few weeks ago. I'm not sure why we're having it again...but at least it allows me to fast forward to the end and not feel like I've missed anything.

Messina:

I'm not sure if you know something we don't, or you're just terribly bullheaded, but at this point I"m prepared to ignore the rest of your posts in the Ministry on the basis that:
  • You are apparently operating on a grade-school concept of morality in which there are clear cut good and bad guys, and you are without doubt on the good side.
  • No matter your opinions, you seem to honestly believe that the United States is a better judge of what is in 'the world's interests' than the world itself.
  • Your ability to not only indict but prematurely convict Hussein of ties to terrorism, while writing off as circumstantial the considerable body of evidence suggesting Bush's motives are neither altruistic nor in good faith underlines the general hypocrisy surrounding the argument for this war. No country has a larger weapons program, in any part or in whole, than the United States. No other country has made use of nuclear weapons against other human beings aside from the United States, and no other country is responsible for or at least has had a hand in more deaths world-wide than the United States in the 20th century. Saying Saddam is a threat for trying to developt these same weapons is a case of the fucking billion gallon crock pot calling the kettle black.
  • Fuck you, Heretic
  • Your assessment of the reason the US doesn't work well in international coalitions is again a perfect example of the underlying cause. The US thinks itself fit to judge in every situation, and judges the merit of international apparatus with respect only to its own interests, without ever deferring to anyone else. Even you can't think the US is right 100% of the time, especially when a plurality of nations opposes the US views.


I can respect Hoboken because he professes not to give a shit about the rest of the world, and a slew of other things about which he does not give a shit, and then proceeds to firmly support American unilateralism. He doesn't make pretenses of being concerned with world interests, or the poor starving Iraqis (which the US has helped starve anyway). He supports the war for totally unilateral reasons, and at least he's honest with himself about that.

You just live in a fantasy world where the US is some kind of infallible white knight.
"Behold I am the Dragon, before me you rightly tremble!"

Kauser
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Postby Kauser » Mon Oct 07, 2002 2:50 am

Good post Red.

a.) Personally I'm all for the war, any war. Hell they could be attacking us, and I'd be for it. France could be trying invade Poland, I think it would be interesting to watch.

b.) Trying to develop said weapons? Where do you think he got the tech? the U.S. gave it to him to help assist an Iraqi victory during their war with the Iranians. Another U.S. loose end.

d.) I need CNN to become entertaining again.

c.) Fuck you, Heretic.

e.) It'll give Iraq a reason to nuke Israel.
Do not call up what you cannot put down.

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Too-Much-Coffee Mistress
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Postby Too-Much-Coffee Mistress » Tue Oct 08, 2002 6:19 am

Dear god, just when I thought this thread had died... ah well. My last post for it; an amusing Onion article.
"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker." - Albert Einstein

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Lobstrosity
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Postby Lobstrosity » Tue Oct 08, 2002 6:49 am

Man, the Onion does some funny shit.

"Despite repeated American efforts to change the situation, Saddam Hussein defiantly continues his longtime policy of being the president of Iraq," Bush said. "The time has come for this man to step down, because we want him to."

hurdlers
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US gov't problems

Postby hurdlers » Tue Oct 08, 2002 9:52 pm

I feel like out government is so worried about being correct politically that they lose sight of what they are actually supposed to be doing (which I believe is PROTECT OUR RIGHTS). No matter what they do, any action will have consequences, and they need to get over the fact that that might mean losing a couple (thousand) votes. I'm sick of their teeter-tottering back and forth to please everyone, because frankly, it can't be done because everyone has a different opinion. This is just mine. [/u][/i]

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Too-Much-Coffee Mistress
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Postby Too-Much-Coffee Mistress » Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:04 am

Messina wrote: Stop misunderestimating him.
And most importantly, it could result in the deaths of thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of innocent people.

This is true. It could. We need to keep this in mind. I think tens of thousands is excessive, but yes, we do need to make sure that we being careful (as far as it goes in war) not to kill thousands of innocents while we are pursuing our objectives.



.... sigh.
"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker." - Albert Einstein

hobokenbob
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Postby hobokenbob » Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:15 pm

man I miss "fuck you heretic" being in every list
In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

Jason Mustian

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Too-Much-Coffee Mistress
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Postby Too-Much-Coffee Mistress » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:37 am

Nobody does lists anymore. SOMEONE DO A LIST!
"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker." - Albert Einstein

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OMGBEES
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Postby OMGBEES » Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:28 am

1. This.
2. Is a list.
3. It also.
4. FUCK YOU, HERETIC.
5. Is a sentence.

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Bunyip
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Postby Bunyip » Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:52 am

Too-Much-Coffee Mistress wrote:Nobody does lists anymore. SOMEONE DO A LIST!

Hey.

Ludovico
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Postby Ludovico » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:13 am

Where did this post come from? The last post on this before TMCM is October 8th, 2002.
-'Vico

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Bunyip
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Postby Bunyip » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:42 am

TMCM was going over old wounds.

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OMGBEES
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Postby OMGBEES » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:45 am

I lick mine. I like the feeling of them under my tongue.

hobokenbob
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Postby hobokenbob » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:52 am

I just watched 4 star general Ray Odierno shave Stephen Colbert's head under president Obama's direct orders in Saddam Hussein's palace over the internet through hulu.


so this war has kind of taken a turn for the truly bizarre.
In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

Jason Mustian

Kauser
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Postby Kauser » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:39 am

You say Bizarre, I say Awesome.


I have been waiting for the day that the things in my head are surpassed in insanity by the things I see on TV. I think that day is now approaching.
Do not call up what you cannot put down.


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