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Too-Much-Coffee Mistress
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Postby Too-Much-Coffee Mistress » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:54 am

Bag of Ass wrote:When they say stuff is made of corn, is that necessarily a good thing? I mean, doesn't it take a lot of land and water to make corn grow? Are they just using castoff corn material (like the husk and hair) that would otherwise go to waste, or are they producing extra corn for this purpose? Does it cut into the corn-as-food numbers?


The problem is that, to get anything remotely resembling an effective yield, they pretty much have to use the entire plant. Which doesn't really leave anything for the farmer to leave in his / her field to help with nutrient content. Which means they need to use even more fertilizer. Which means more oil. Which means more corn, etc. etc. etc.
"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker." - Albert Einstein

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Tobliz
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Postby Tobliz » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:30 am

Corn ethanol does not yield as much energy as it takes to grow the corn and process it, which is kinda fucked up. Sugar cane ethanol, on the other hand...

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Bunyip
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Postby Bunyip » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:41 am

According to this thingy (click on the Energy Balance tab), corn ethanol does have more output than input but not by much. Sugarcane returns like 8 times which makes me wonder if Queensland is on this. Lift your game, Queensland!

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Postby Tobliz » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:43 am

I'll admit that I learned about corn ethanol a couple years back, so they may have made the process more efficient.

Still!

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OMGBEES
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Postby OMGBEES » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:33 am

When they're counting input, are they basically counting the energy it takes to run the farm equipment for planting, harvesting, etc?

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Too-Much-Coffee Mistress
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Postby Too-Much-Coffee Mistress » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:44 am

I don't think so. I think all they're considering is the energy used for processing.
"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker." - Albert Einstein

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OMGBEES
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Postby OMGBEES » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:45 am

Oh, I see. That's unfortunate.

Things like ethanol are actually kind of cool, because they're basically an easy-to-store, easy-to-carry form of solar energy.

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Too-Much-Coffee Mistress
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Postby Too-Much-Coffee Mistress » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:51 am

I have to say, I do like these advances I'm hearing about in solar technology lately. Like, basically radically increasing the effectiveness of solar panels just by coating them with a certain type of paint, or using the solar energy to heat water directly and get steam-powered electricity that way.

I'm really surprised that no one seems to be dumping research dollars into a way to solve the problem of electric power degradation over distance. It seems, from my relatively uneducated point of view, that this is something that could be solved given a healthy amount of research.
"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker." - Albert Einstein

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Postby Eolh » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

The only thing ethanol has going for it is that it is not oil, and doesn't have to be obtained from other countries. There is so much bad about it though.

I'm really surprised that no one seems to be dumping research dollars into a way to solve the problem of electric power degradation over distance. It seems, from my relatively uneducated point of view, that this is something that could be solved given a healthy amount of research.

Are you really that surprised? Our country doesn't really do scientific grants anymore, at least not like we used to, and leaving it to the free market in a country that is so oil-soaked has proven to be untenable.
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Postby hobokenbob » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:33 pm

too true. the sad fact is, nothing gives the bang for the buck that oil does, or even comes close. it's millions of years of concentrated sunshine being used up in hundred of years, and really nothing else is really going to come along that will replace it. that's why i called it humanity's one-time bonus.

hydrogen, and ethanol biofuels are ultimately only ways to transport and store energy, not really ways to create it - it's a three card monty game where the oil being used is a little more hidden, maybe a little more efficient, but it's still there.

more efficient cars/lightbulbs/ipods mak you feel better about yourself but do nothing about the problem.

The only alt energy creators are nuke, wind, solar, geotherm, tidal and other even more bizzare un-refined methods. Nuke has it's own down sides (however I still think it should be seriously considered, unlike Gore), and the rest come no where near the power potential of burning stuff.

If I were an alien looking down at our species, I don't think I'd catagorize us as homo-sapiens. No, we're more like the ape that burns, than the ape that thinks. burning fossil fuels is only the latest trend, burning things has been our main activity since we lept forward and is in our nature, it seems.
In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

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Too-Much-Coffee Mistress
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Postby Too-Much-Coffee Mistress » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:36 am

Eolh wrote:Are you really that surprised? Our country doesn't really do scientific grants anymore, at least not like we used to, and leaving it to the free market in a country that is so oil-soaked has proven to be untenable.


'Surprise' was probably a bad choice of words, but regardless, it seems like there'd be someone doing research on it. Right now, I'm picturing the midwest in the 1930s as far as research goes.
"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker." - Albert Einstein

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Postby hobokenbob » Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:21 pm

Looks like Lehman Brothers is about to tank now. Government bailout for rich people in 5..4..3...
In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

Jason Mustian

Eolh
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Postby Eolh » Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:05 pm

hobokenbob wrote:Looks like Lehman Brothers is about to tank now. Government bailout for rich people in 5..4..3...

I understand the need for the government bailouts, if we didn't do them the entire economy would collapse in a painful domino effect. Still. Seems like there should be some consequence for the douches who did this shit that doesn't hurt me.
Your mind has been transported back in time...and to Mars.

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Too-Much-Coffee Mistress
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Postby Too-Much-Coffee Mistress » Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:07 am

Eolh wrote:I understand the need for the government bailouts, if we didn't do them the entire economy would collapse in a painful domino effect. Still. Seems like there should be some consequence for the douches who did this shit that doesn't hurt me.


Kind of destroys the whole notion of a supposedly 'free' market though, doesn't it? Not to mention that this debt isn't going to disappear just because the government bought up a bunch of shares at the cheap. They're just throwing fake money after even more fake money. And at what point do we stop saying "Hey, this company is too big to fail / too intertwined in the economy to fail / etc."

There are also some analysts that are saying that the collapse of Fannie and Freddie wouldn't have been the financial Apocalypse. I'll post some links later.
"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker." - Albert Einstein

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Postby Kauser » Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:13 am

Rule number 67: In the end, fuck the rules.
Do not call up what you cannot put down.

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pablo banquo
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Postby pablo banquo » Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:05 am

Yep.
i before e except after a few beers

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Postby hobokenbob » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:46 pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28169882/

Homeland Security head Mike Chertoff ... has had illegal immigrants work in his home. He can't even secure his own home. And he's in charge of immigration. The Bush legacy, keeps getting better and better. Buchannon must be really feeling the heat.
In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

Jason Mustian

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Too-Much-Coffee Mistress
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Postby Too-Much-Coffee Mistress » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:16 am

That... is fucking funny.
"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker." - Albert Einstein

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nobody_important
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Postby nobody_important » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:02 am

It's obvious what needs to be done here.... we need to build a giant fence around Chertoff's house.
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OMGBEES
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Postby OMGBEES » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:45 am

Moat with aligators.


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