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Kauser
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Postby Kauser » Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:05 pm

Concerning An Inconvenient Truth. It's fear peddling. That is the bread and butter of any politician. I'm not going to refute the movie entirely, or in part, only state that it is presented by a man that made his name built on exaggeration and equivocation. Were it presented by Todd Gross, I'd lend it more credibility.
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Postby hobokenbob » Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:45 pm

is Al Gore still a politician? So far he's not running for anything, so your assumption is that he's planning to run for uh "something" in the near future? :wink:
In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

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Kauser
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Postby Kauser » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:05 pm

hobokenbob wrote:is Al Gore still a politician? So far he's not running for anything, so your assumption is that he's planning to run for uh "something" in the near future? :wink:


You don't have to be running for a goddamned thing to be a politician.

Just because a cop isn't on duty doesn't mean he's going to look the other way if a robbery happens in the store he's in, and just because you aren't online doesn't mean you're any less an idiot.

There are just some taints you can't bleach off.
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Postby hobokenbob » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:36 pm

Doesn't seem to hold up. A politician who's still got elections to worry about acts far different than one who doesn't. if anything, Gore would act much less radical than he is now if he was thinking like a politician. Politicians may use fear peddling in their skill set but their bread and butter is equivocation.

Besides I don't ever recal Al Gore using fear mongering to further any political agendas before he retired from politics. you may be mistaking him for the current administration :wink:
In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

Jason Mustian

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Postby Eolh » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:23 pm

And really, I didn't consider An Inconvenient Truth to be fearmongering in any way. I found it to be almost purely educational and even a little hopeful.
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Kauser
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Postby Kauser » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:52 am

People believe what they want to out of hope, want, or fear.
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Postby Eolh » Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:06 am

Sure, but you leveled a claim of fear mongering at Al Gore, and I really don't think he has been. I'd be open to evidence to the contrary, however.
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Postby Too-Much-Coffee Mistress » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:29 pm

Gore's been doing the enviro-push for YEARS... Whether he's right or wrong is a whole other topic, but I don't get the impression that his passions for this are nothing more than political dreams...
"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker." - Albert Einstein

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Postby hobokenbob » Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:21 pm

Kauser wrote:People believe what they want to out of hope, want, or fear.


...or because the truth is too inconvenient to face up to. 8)

I'll state one in Kauser's defence. I think it was in poor taste to bring up Katrina in his movie, people were still struggling with that and yeah they'd like to know why but it shouldn't be used in anyone's agenda yet even a noble one. He didn't go as far as the bush administration use of 9-11 but then he not a politician.
In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

Jason Mustian

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Postby hobokenbob » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:19 pm

In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

Jason Mustian

Kauser
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Postby Kauser » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:02 pm

Just wanted to chime in that I'm not dropping out on this one. I went out got a copy of AIT, and am going through it to throw out examples of fear mongering. The difficult part is that pretty much anyone can say, "Well I don't think that is fair to call XYZ" As a result I am singling out any non neutrally stated item which conveys a sense of unavoidable peril. Meaning it doesn't count if at the end of the movie he says "but this can be all averted!" if he spends 75% of the movie telling people how they are all going to die.


Also, apparently Gore and Arnold both think being Green is for the other guy anyway. They both purchase what's called Carbon Credits. Essentially allowing them to burn as much fuel as they want, and be as environmentally unhealthy as they please, all the while throwing money at the problem. The money goes towards replanting forests and other such activities (like being embezzeled or misspent). It's like the chinese land owners that would abuse people, cheat, and swindle with abandon, but set aside money to build pagodas so they could get into the afterlife.


Anyway, I should have the list in a couple days.


EDIT:

Dr. Allegre especially despairs at "the greenhouse-gas fanatics whose proclamations consist in denouncing man's role on the climate without doing anything about it except organizing conferences and preparing protocols that become dead letters." The world would be better off, Dr. Allegre believes, if these "denouncers" became less political and more practical, by proposing practical solutions to head off the dangers they see, such as developing technologies to sequester C02.



Sounds like that one may have been leveled at Gore.
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Postby hobokenbob » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:22 pm

criticizing a messenger is an argument to the validity of the message now?

if you are referring to Gore's recently leaked electricity bill, it is high partly because he chooses to purchase some of his electricity from renewable sources at a considerably higher kW/h rate. his usage is also high because thats a big house with a big family and he also has to make secret service at home too. and he says he offsets the rest.

That said, I'm concerned myself on the effectiveness of carbon offsets. Is it a vast conspiracy by globalists to redistribute the wealth of the US through carbon taxes? probably not. Is it the modern day equivalent of religious indulgences? maybe. Bottom line is if it really does reduce carbon dioxide in the air instead of just shifting the shit around to developing countries it could be useful, and if not it's a huge mistake.
In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

Jason Mustian

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Postby Eolh » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:26 pm

Didn't you know? Ad Hominem officially stopped being a logical fallacy about 7 years ago.
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Kauser
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Postby Kauser » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:26 pm

I think the carbon credit deal is just another way for people with money to be privilaged. They shirk any real impact on themselves by throwing money at it.


Here is Arnold

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/politic ... er__8.html

The Gore one you've probably already read about.

Honestly, Fear mongering and Guilt tripping aren't predicated on the truth. It's predicated on presentation, and eliciting something out of someone.

The best confidence games use facts to support them.

Though, in my last post I pretty much predicted the response I'm getting. You've already made up your minds, so it's little more than intellectual masturbation for me to realistically make an attempt to present any form of argument.


See how that works?
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hobokenbob
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Postby hobokenbob » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:52 pm

Is your argument that the movie "an inconvenient truth" is fear mongering and that two famous guys are hypocrites, or is it that climate change and humanities affect on it isn't real?

because one's worth debating an the other is a subjective opinion that I agree will never get anywhere.

You haven't brought up some reasons against climate change worth mentioning (unlike someone's electricity bill or how the terminator rolls) so I will.

Alot of these are taken from Michael Crichton's arguments you can find in his speeches sections ( http://www.michaelcrichton.net/speeches/index.html) , who argues the same point of view as you do.

Something as complex as a planetary climate is too sophisticated for anyone to truly understand, and the idea that temperature is simply linearly correlated to one factor - CO2 is overly an simplistic model. Until we know more we shouldn't try to change things.

As a result of relying on overly simplistic models, Man's earlier attempts at stewardship of the environment hasn't had a very good track record. EG: park rangers thinking it was a good idea to kill off all the wolves in Yellowstone national park to protect the deer and some such lead t overpopulation and overgrazing from too many deer that wrecked the ecosystem for alot more animals.

It's not so much the science that you disagree with. It is that media + science is never good. Media likes sensationalism and science is not supposed to be about that, Global Warming has become more media hype than real science and maybe scientists have let it get that way. Or aren't doing enough to stop it.
In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

Jason Mustian

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Postby hobokenbob » Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:13 pm

An interesting new study showing that global warming might not just be limited to earth, therefore at least part of the effect might be solar in origin:

http://www.livescience.com/environment/ ... rming.html

theres just not enough data to say how much is related to solar activity though. each planet has its own unique perturbations in its orbit, atmosphere, surface area, albedo. but an interesting notion nonetheless.
In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

Jason Mustian

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Postby hobokenbob » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:56 am

Did anyone catch the climate change hearings today? I'm on vacation and didn't even know it was happening until i caught a snippet of non news tonight. youtube only seems to have the Gore's opening speech.

also, electronet? wtf
In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

Jason Mustian

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Postby Too-Much-Coffee Mistress » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:24 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-A3XHFT5qc

You can find a link to part 2 of the video from that page. This thing sounds entirely nifty if it pans out.
"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker." - Albert Einstein

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Postby hobokenbob » Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:39 pm

Tomorrow is Earth Day.


Here's a nice article
In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

Jason Mustian

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Postby hobokenbob » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:14 pm

http://www.wired.com/science/planeteart ... relocation
This is so astonishingly retarded I don't even know where to begin.
In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

Jason Mustian


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